Chi Discussion Forum

Hi,
I’ve been practicing Chi-Running for 3 years now.  Throughout I’ve been focusing on a 90/min. cadence.  It’s worked amazingly well for me.  I ran my first marathon last year with relative ease maintaining the 90 beat cadence.

My issue is this year I’ve been training for faster races like 5K and 10K’s. I noticed that my cadence jumps up to 93-95/min. at my 5K pace (6:30/mi.)  I’m short, 5’6” with 28-29in. inseam and I really struggle with stride length maintaining 90/min.  I feel like I’m running hurdles.  Likewise if I try to maintain a 93-95/min. cadence at marathon pace (8:15) I feel like I have to force my legs to chug like a steam locomotive. I know consistent cadence with lean and stride length is one of the basics of chirunning so what can I do? 

Thanks!
Mike L.

Hi Mike -

One word - relax! The faster you go, the more you need to relax and let your legs stride to the rear. As you lean more to go faster, your stride length opens up (to the rear). Try the knee bending exercise, and when you get to the third step (adding lean and arm swing), let the ground ‘grab’ your foot just before the ankle lift. This will pull your leg back, which (if your hips/obliques are ‘soft’) will allow your pelvis to rotate back. Don’t force the pelvic rotation as much as allow it, although, if you are fairly tight in the hips, you might have to effort some at first.

Another drill to feel the pelvic rotation is the pool run - start out running all out, like you are 8 years old, and trying the beat the others to the diving board. At some point (say 15 yds) imagine you have been yelled at by the lifeguard who shouts “Walk!!” Break into a walk, but keep the momentum going (visualize a race walker). Notice the pelvis rotating. That should give you somewhat of an idea of what it feels like.

Of course, in your 5K and 10K, it won’t feel like that as much, but do notice ‘releasing’ the obliques (between the bottom of the ribs and the hips) and see if that helps. Keep us posted.

Laura Houston
Certified Chi Running and Chi Walking Instructor
Seattle WA

Thanks Laura,

I’m working on the suggestions that you recommended.  I’m still struggling a bit with the 5K pace while maintaining a 90-93 beat cadence. I’m hoping that it’s just a matter of time and practice.  Just for the heck of it I tested my cadence at what felt like my normal technique and 5K pace for a half mile.  The meter read 100!, and I was breathing very hard.  I then set the metronome to 92 and ran the same speed if not a little faster.  I was definitely breathing easier but it felt awkward and like I was using my quads a lot more.  Anyway, it’s a work in progress….

Thank you again!,
Mike Lawrence

I think it’s wrong to restrict your cadence to 90. Cadence is a reflection of your speed -your feet have to catch up with your body. Trying to slow your cadence at a higher speed will end up with an overstride or keeping your foot on the grund for too long. Usian Bolt sprints with a 110-120 cadence -if it wasn’t that fast he’s fall flat on his face!

Hi Dibbers - when speaking about a 100 yd sprint, yes, you cadence has to increase. In those cases, you use a burst of glycogen that gets you through the 100 yds. But if you are going longer, say a 5K or 10K, even racing, you need to be more efficient and also use different muscles. If you are trying NOT to overstride, as in Chi Running, you need to be able to allow the road to take your foot back and open up your hips a bit (aka, pelvic rotation), as your speed is more dependent on your lean. If you don’t open up enough (as with locked or tight hips), you will try to keep up with that lean by increasing your cadence, and set yourself up for strained hamstrings, for example. You also will not be able to keep your upper body still (mainly your shoulders) so you will get more upper body rotation, which can lead to lateral hip movement, resulting in ITB issues, over the long haul.

Think of it this way - as you lean to go faster, you need a bigger wheel behind you to counter balance that lean. A good way to check if you are opened up enough is to check in with your cadence - too slow means you are starting to overstride, and need to bring the stride length in a little for where you are at. Too fast means you are not relaxing and allowing that wheel to get bigger. The relaxation part also includes bending your knees more as you lean more - that helps make that wheel bigger. It IS true in some cases (elite runners who are doing 5 -6 minute miles in a marathon) that you will see a bit higher cadence (in the 93-95 range), especially near the end when they are trying to get that finishing kick. You will also see some upper body rotation. But take a look at the way the Kenyans do it in a marathon and check their cadence and how relaxed they look.

And Usain Bolt even says if you can’t relax, you can’t go fast. He’s the fastest man in the world.

Laura Houston
Certified Chi Running and Chi Walking Instructor
Seattle WA

Thanks Luara.

I do agree 100% about being relaxed, but a fast cadence doesn’t mean you’re not…unless you artificially increase it.

I think your suggestion that sprinters aren’t, or don’t need to be efficient in a race as short as 100yrds is something i find hard to beleive. Their cadence is higher because they’re leaning (falling) more and doing it quicker. Without a cadence appropriate to their spped they would simply fall flat on their faces. Cadence should be a minimum of 180 to utilise the muscle elasticity recoil.

I know Chi advocates extending the stride behind, but that just encourages the swing leg to overstride, and you can’t change support whilst that leg is hanging back there on the ground (unless you’re walking). It has to catch up with the body to support it.

With regard to the marathon runners - there cadence increases at the end BECAUSE they’re finishing with a kick.

Usain Bolt goes fast. very fast, so is obviously relaxed with a very quick cadence.

Hi dibbers -

I didn’t suggest that Sprinters are less efficient - quite the contrary! I meant that they are not in the run for the long haul. Those who are need to be more efficient in how they spend their glycogen stores.

As for leaning and catching up and the potential of over-striding - quite the contrary too. As you lean more, your heel comes up higher in the back (due to knee bending) and, ideally, that heel forms a circle, or a wheel, if you will. Striding to the rear, with the idea of pelvic rotation, allows the legs to return (close to your center of gravity) due to elastic recoil. So in no way should you ‘effort’ the leg to come forward, as much as you allow it. The elastic recoil is what returns your leg to the support stance after swinging to the rear.

For a better description and clarfication than I have time to provide at the moment, check the Chi Marathon Book (my electronic book says p456, for starters; if you have the book, check the index under Are You An Advanced Runner). If you don’t have a copy, get your hands on one - http://store.chiliving.com/Books-all/Chi-Marathon-Book.

Laura Houston
Certified Chi Running and Chi Walking Instructor
Seattle WA

Laura

I agree about not using ‘effort’ to bring the leg forward (as in knee drive). I think actually it’s just the cadence that we may disagree on.

Cadence has to be speed apropriate (with a minimum of 180-below this we’e not utilising the elastic recoil). There isn’t an exception when it comes to running 100m pace for example. Fundamentally, running is exactly the same at any speed, it’s just the magnitude (the Chi wheel and the angle of lean analogy) that alters. As Danny once put it ‘your legs just come along for the ride’ - if the body moves quicker, the legs have to move quicker too to keep up, otherwise they won’t be there to support the body.

If you ran at marathon pace and gradually increased your speed up to 100m pace, you wouldn’t keep your cadence at 180 right up to the point of your 100m pace then suddenly change to a faster cadence. If you were on a treadmill at a reasonably quick pace and then increased the speed too much you would fly off the back of it and land on your face…because your legs couldn’t keep up with your body.

Hi Dibbers -

Fun discussion! You make some valid points and I would add to them as follows (with your words in quotes):

“Fundamentally, running is exactly the same at any speed, it’s just the magnitude (the Chi wheel and the angle of lean analogy) that alters. As Danny once put it ‘your legs just come along for the ride’ - if the body moves quicker, the legs have to move quicker too to keep up, otherwise they won’t be there to support the body.”

The more you can relax into that angle of lean, the easier it is to bend your knees and allow the ground to take the leg rearward, thus opening your hips up and increasing the stride length to the rear - that’s where the yardage comes in for most folks. To a point, you can maintain a consistent cadence of 180; at 100m pace that might not be so. But below that point (slower), if your cadence is above 180, you are probably 1) too upright 2) not relaxed enough and 3) not allowing the hips to open up.

Alignment and relaxation HAVE to go together - if your only focus is alignment, and too much, you will create tension. And you will use your legs more for speed that momentary support. That’s why using 180 as a guide to relax is great if you tend to be too tense. I know - I speak from experience on this one.

“If you ran at marathon pace and gradually increased your speed up to 100m pace, you wouldn’t keep your cadence at 180 right up to the point of your 100m pace then suddenly change to a faster cadence.”

Exactly - it would be a gradual increase to a point of diminishing returns. Who runs a marathon at a 100m pace?? O_o Maybe the sub-3 hour folks - and only near the end? But definitely not the 3:30 or slower people. Again, the faster you go the more you need to relax - and a steady cadence works well for the long run.

Cheers!
Laura Houston
Certified Chi Running and Chi Walking Instructor
Seattle WA

Laura Houston - 12 February 2013 03:00 PM

Hi Dibbers -

Exactly - it would be a gradual increase to a point of diminishing returns. Who runs a marathon at a 100m pace?? O_o Maybe the sub-3 hour folks - and only near the end? But definitely not the 3:30 or slower people. Again, the faster you go the more you need to relax - and a steady cadence works well for the long run.

I wasn’t suggesting anyone does run a marathon at that pace. My point was if you did any run strating at marathon PACE and increased your speed to 100m PACE your cadence would not stay at 180, it would increase appropriately (not forced) with the speed. This was my original point.

Cadence shouldn’t be forced - I agree and the need to relax at any speed is essentiala - I agree too.

Really interesting discussion Laura. Hopefully other will have gained some more knowledge from it

Thanks very much

Hi Dibbers -

I got my metronome out and watched this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qYXe01cEpU - Geoffrey Mutai winning the 2011 Boston marathon in 2:03. I clocked him at 92 spm. Pretty impressive that he can run a marathon that fast at that ‘slow’ of a cadence. He looked pretty relaxed too. And in my next life, I want legs that long and knees that can bend as effortlessly as his! Ha ha!

Laura Houston
Certified Chi Running and Chi Walking Instructor
Seattle WA

Yes, indeed. But did you notice it increase a little when he pulled away at the end. If you watch the top 5K runners, there cadence is steady at around 92 ish then as they speed up in the last lap, it usually increases.

I think we can agree that cadence should be around 90 ...or more.

Great questions and comments.  I’m a fairly competitive runner, mostly ultras but also shorter races.  When I run 5K’s and such, I notice my cadence is in the low 180’s vs. my usual 179-180.  Cadence increases slightly which is ok.

The key to running faster is running efficiently.  Speed=cadence X stride length.  Most runners work way too hard when they run fast.  They mostly speed up by increasing cadence which is a lot more work.  By keeping cadence fairly consistent and increasing stride length, this makes for a very efficient way of running.  The key with stride length is opening up to the back (not the front like power running).  If we can open up by relaxing and not working harder, it’s almost like free speed.

The way to open up stride length is overall relaxation and pelvic/spinal rotation both which take advantage of elastic recoil.

Dibber, let me know if you have any additional questions about how to increase speed and enhance performance.

Hey Mike,

Thanks for checking into the forums and congrats on doing so well in the marathon!

I’ve managed to run some fast 5k/10k times using the chi technique. Also, I have a similar body type as you so I can relate to the stride length thing. Luckily the two best 5k/10k runners of all time are about our height so we have hope!

Here are my tips for running super fast within the chi framework.

*cadence - I keep it steady around 88-90 for 95% of the race. I ramp it up in the final 200meters/final straightaway,  not because I’m *thinking* about it, but because that’s just what happens.  I find keeping it steady for the majority of the race allows me to get in the zone and just roll along nice and relaxed. It also saves a ton for a huge kick, which I use depending on the situation.

But the real issue here, the real crux of the matter isnt about what to do about cadence…its how to train your body to handle the speeds you are running at 5k/10k races.

Keep running and try to keep it in the zone where you feel GOOD. Before, during and after the run - feel GREAT.

If you haven’t already done so: BEGIN CORE-STABILITY TRAINING IMMEDIATELY.

It is absolutely imperative you do core stability exercises to train your body to handle higher degrees of lean, working with momentum, balance, flexibility etc…..

Running fast shouldn’t tire you out or hurt you, it should be the greatest JOY. The key is you absolutley must train your core stability. If you don’t know where to start: do pushups and squats.

Keep the running RELAXED and FUN, get to that zone where you are fast, but still clicking of at around 90spm and cross train to be a beast.

Thanks Ryan and Damian (they are two great instructors, y’all!) for popping in. Dibbers, I asked some of our speedier instructors what they thought and it generated some great discussion! While Ryan (runs a VERY speedy 5K) and another instructor, Bryan Huberty, who set the Bahamas marathon course record last year agree that cadence might go up a bit in the end, it wasn’t by much. And as Bryan stated - Core is critical just like form to letting speed happen naturally. I [Bryan] also agree with what Damian said about the stride opening behind you more as you lean and thus your cadence doesn’t need to rise as much as a power runner. Balance is key when you go after speed as a chi runner otherwise you will be humbled quickly.

What seemed utmost important is the core stability and the relaxation that allows that speed - not your legs. Danny Dreyer summed it up so nicely here:

“The higher the speed, the less the body uses and requires pelvic rotation, thus the higher cadence… because the faster you go the more you rely on core strength and the less you should rely on leg strength. There is a whole spectrum of speeds from pure fight-or-flight sprinting, all the way through ultra-long distance persistence running. As you progress from your long distance pace into a finishing kick, some of the rules of long distance aerobic running fall away (cadence increases, muscle usage increases slightly, etc.) and transform into low-end anaerobic rules, in which case you’re not concerned so much about economy of effort because you know the end is near, literally. Same applies for sprinting shorter distances… it’s not a matter of fuel economy so some of the rules that apply for longer distances don’t apply to sprinting. Two common things that apply across the board are Alignment (core strength) and Relaxation (cooperating with forces). It’s almost comical how it always comes down to yin and yang.”

Hope that clears up some things!

Laura Houston
Certified Chi Running and Chi Walking Instructor
Seattle WA

Glad it’s opened up some interesting discussions.

I 100% agree about relaxation and core strength as mentioned in a few posts.

Damian Stoy - 13 February 2013 06:10 PM

The key to running faster is running efficiently.  Speed=cadence X stride length.  Most runners work way too hard when they run fast.  They mostly speed up by increasing cadence which is a lot more work.  By keeping cadence fairly consistent and increasing stride length, this makes for a very efficient way of running.  The key with stride length is opening up to the back (not the front like power running).  If we can open up by relaxing and not working harder, it’s almost like free speed.

I agree that The key to running faster is running efficiently -100%. However, speed does not come from stride length in efficient running -stride length is the RESULT of speed! The body accelerates and builds it’s speed as it falls forward (or as the road pulls your foot back as Chi’s visualisation) from mid-stance. Then as we change support and we’re airborn only gravity is acting on us to bring us back to the ground. We cannot run until we fall. The quicker we fall and the further we fall (up to 22.5* -after which the support is lost) the faster we go. The faster we go the longer our stride. So, speed comes from how well we fall (lean) and cadence.

Ryan: I ramp it up in the final 200meters/final straightaway,  not because I’m *thinking* about it, but because that’s just what happens.

Exactly…you’d fall flat on your face otherwise. Remember, when I talk about increased cadence I’m not advocating forcing it. My original post said that ‘I think it’s wrong to restrict it to 90’.

I think trying to extending the stride behind is inneficient because you’re likely to keep the foot on the ground too long -past the point of support. Whilst this is happening, your swing leg carries on moving through and is more likely to end up landing in front of your hips. This will also slow your cadence. Also a lagging rear legs acts as a counterbalance to the fall - we want to fall, not hinder it. In other words, if you want to go from A to B, stop holding on to A !

Damian Stoy - 13 February 2013 06:10 PM

  Most runners work way too hard when they run fast.  They mostly speed up by increasing cadence which is a lot more work.

You can’t increase speed by just increasing cadence. I can run in place with a cadence at varying speeds and I ain’t going anywhere. Gravity is the primary force in running. It’s the fall or the lean that generates our speed and acceleration. A quick cadence reflects and fascilitates this.